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	<title>Comments on: Terry Spragg Comments on Water, Peace and the Middle East</title>
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	<link>http://www.internationalwaterlaw.org/blog/2009/07/29/terry-spragg-comments-on-water-peace-and-the-middle-east/</link>
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		<title>By: Terry Spragg</title>
		<link>http://www.internationalwaterlaw.org/blog/2009/07/29/terry-spragg-comments-on-water-peace-and-the-middle-east/comment-page-1/#comment-156</link>
		<dc:creator>Terry Spragg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 01:43:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://internationalwaterlaw.org/blog/?p=171#comment-156</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mr. Salomons,  
I appreciate your comments.  As you know, desalination figures vary widely around the world depending on many factors.  A 50 MGD plant is being proposed for California where the water to be produced will cost around $1,000 per acre foot, and a $250/acre foot subsidy is involved.  I believe IDE is involved in this project.  I don&#039;t move from Shekels to Dollars very well, and as you point out the dollar/shekel exchange rate varies widely.  An acre foot is equal to 1,233 m3.  

Throughout Mr. Arlosoroff&#039;s email to Mr. Brooks that I have in front of me he quotes the &quot;...unit of water &quot;EX PLANT&quot; is again 52 USC/C.M.&quot; and &quot;...The Ashkelon plant produces water for 52-55 USC/C.M. (EX PLANT)&quot; (My caps added).  I can only go by what the documents in front of me say.  Since $0.52/m3 is well below all other costs for true sea water desalination I have seen around the world it would be very helpful for our argument to see a detailed cost breakdown of the figures from this BOT tender.  Is the cost of land included?  How is the financing arranged and at what rates?  Facts can become fiction when it comes to desalination numbers as you well know.  I have seen a recent bid for a desalination plant in Saudi Arabia that would produce water in the $0.90/m3 meter to $1.10/m3 range, and Saudi Arabia has a lot of cheap energy.  I recall seeing a document that discussed a dispute between BP, and Egypian gas company and a Palestinian company over who had the rights to the gas to be used at the first Ashkelon plant and the contract cost for this gas.  It was said that this gas price would not be duplicated in the future because of the special circumstances involved.  Maybe you know about this issue.  I don&#039;t question your integrity or your professional experience.  It is just that desalination numbers around the world are all over the map and there should be some way to arrive at a standard.  In the end, I will put up the cost to transport water from Turkey to Israel and Palestine using waterbag technology against any desalination numbers.  Again, look at photos of waterbags and desalination plants.  What looks cheaper and easier to build?  The tugs and the plumbing for the waterbag system are simple off-the-shelf technology.  Thanks for your comments.  What are your opinions on waterbag technology and economics? Terry Spragg]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Salomons,<br />
I appreciate your comments.  As you know, desalination figures vary widely around the world depending on many factors.  A 50 MGD plant is being proposed for California where the water to be produced will cost around $1,000 per acre foot, and a $250/acre foot subsidy is involved.  I believe IDE is involved in this project.  I don&#8217;t move from Shekels to Dollars very well, and as you point out the dollar/shekel exchange rate varies widely.  An acre foot is equal to 1,233 m3.  </p>
<p>Throughout Mr. Arlosoroff&#8217;s email to Mr. Brooks that I have in front of me he quotes the &#8220;&#8230;unit of water &#8220;EX PLANT&#8221; is again 52 USC/C.M.&#8221; and &#8220;&#8230;The Ashkelon plant produces water for 52-55 USC/C.M. (EX PLANT)&#8221; (My caps added).  I can only go by what the documents in front of me say.  Since $0.52/m3 is well below all other costs for true sea water desalination I have seen around the world it would be very helpful for our argument to see a detailed cost breakdown of the figures from this BOT tender.  Is the cost of land included?  How is the financing arranged and at what rates?  Facts can become fiction when it comes to desalination numbers as you well know.  I have seen a recent bid for a desalination plant in Saudi Arabia that would produce water in the $0.90/m3 meter to $1.10/m3 range, and Saudi Arabia has a lot of cheap energy.  I recall seeing a document that discussed a dispute between BP, and Egypian gas company and a Palestinian company over who had the rights to the gas to be used at the first Ashkelon plant and the contract cost for this gas.  It was said that this gas price would not be duplicated in the future because of the special circumstances involved.  Maybe you know about this issue.  I don&#8217;t question your integrity or your professional experience.  It is just that desalination numbers around the world are all over the map and there should be some way to arrive at a standard.  In the end, I will put up the cost to transport water from Turkey to Israel and Palestine using waterbag technology against any desalination numbers.  Again, look at photos of waterbags and desalination plants.  What looks cheaper and easier to build?  The tugs and the plumbing for the waterbag system are simple off-the-shelf technology.  Thanks for your comments.  What are your opinions on waterbag technology and economics? Terry Spragg</p>
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		<title>By: Elad Salomons</title>
		<link>http://www.internationalwaterlaw.org/blog/2009/07/29/terry-spragg-comments-on-water-peace-and-the-middle-east/comment-page-1/#comment-155</link>
		<dc:creator>Elad Salomons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 19:28:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://internationalwaterlaw.org/blog/?p=171#comment-155</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As for documentation: I&#039;m not a government official. I&#039;m a private water resources engineer but I know the numbers. Take a look at the publication over at Desalination and see the facts:
http://www.desline.com/articoli/8020.pdf]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As for documentation: I&#8217;m not a government official. I&#8217;m a private water resources engineer but I know the numbers. Take a look at the publication over at Desalination and see the facts:<br />
<a href="http://www.desline.com/articoli/8020.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.desline.com/articoli/8020.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Elad Salomons</title>
		<link>http://www.internationalwaterlaw.org/blog/2009/07/29/terry-spragg-comments-on-water-peace-and-the-middle-east/comment-page-1/#comment-154</link>
		<dc:creator>Elad Salomons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 19:10:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://internationalwaterlaw.org/blog/?p=171#comment-154</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mr. Spragg,

The Israeli government issued a public BOT tender. The BOT Project is for financing, design, construction, operation and transfer of the plant with guaranteed production capability of 100 mcm/year for a term of 25 years. After 25 years the plant will be transferred, at no additional cost, to the state of Israel. The initial price was set at  52.7 cent/m3. There are &lt;b&gt;no&lt;/b&gt; hidden fees!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Spragg,</p>
<p>The Israeli government issued a public BOT tender. The BOT Project is for financing, design, construction, operation and transfer of the plant with guaranteed production capability of 100 mcm/year for a term of 25 years. After 25 years the plant will be transferred, at no additional cost, to the state of Israel. The initial price was set at  52.7 cent/m3. There are <b>no</b> hidden fees!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Elad Salomons</title>
		<link>http://www.internationalwaterlaw.org/blog/2009/07/29/terry-spragg-comments-on-water-peace-and-the-middle-east/comment-page-1/#comment-153</link>
		<dc:creator>Elad Salomons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:04:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://internationalwaterlaw.org/blog/?p=171#comment-153</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[First of all I must say that the price of the water is not paid in dollars but in Israeli Shekels. The numbers we use are from about the time the contract was signed. Since then the dollar/Shekel exchange rate went up and down strongly.

The cost of production must be less than what it sells for since I don&#039;t know of any subsidy. The last numbers I have are from last year, the cost of the water at Hadera is about 7% less than the price in Ashkelon.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all I must say that the price of the water is not paid in dollars but in Israeli Shekels. The numbers we use are from about the time the contract was signed. Since then the dollar/Shekel exchange rate went up and down strongly.</p>
<p>The cost of production must be less than what it sells for since I don&#8217;t know of any subsidy. The last numbers I have are from last year, the cost of the water at Hadera is about 7% less than the price in Ashkelon.</p>
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		<title>By: Terry Spragg</title>
		<link>http://www.internationalwaterlaw.org/blog/2009/07/29/terry-spragg-comments-on-water-peace-and-the-middle-east/comment-page-1/#comment-152</link>
		<dc:creator>Terry Spragg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 05:40:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://internationalwaterlaw.org/blog/?p=171#comment-152</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[According to the documents I have in hand and have referred to above, Mr. Solomons economics related to the cost of water produced at the Ashkelon plant are wrong.  Regardless of the selling price, the capital costs are not included in his equation.  I would only accept documented evidence as to the TOTAL COST to desalinate water in Israel.  Their costs for desalination have gone through wide swings.  What are the cost of the membranes, the actual life versus the projected life, the cost of energy and length of the contracts, the terms of financing, etc.  There are many questions that have been asked but the government has given no documents to back up the answers.

I suggest you look at a picture of a waterbag (see www.waterbag.com) and then look at a photo of the inside of a desalination plant.  Based on steel and cement, membranes, etc, versus fabric and a zipper, what looks like it would be the most inexpensive system to construct?  And the cost of energy to operate a desal plant versus the cost of energy to move the same volume of water through the ocean using waterbags gives a clear advantage to waterbag technology.

And this doesn&#039;t even put a value on the environmental advantages of waterbag technology versus desalination plants, the cost of the expensive coastal property, etc.

To enter this argument you must base your opinions on documentable facts.

T. Spragg]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to the documents I have in hand and have referred to above, Mr. Solomons economics related to the cost of water produced at the Ashkelon plant are wrong.  Regardless of the selling price, the capital costs are not included in his equation.  I would only accept documented evidence as to the TOTAL COST to desalinate water in Israel.  Their costs for desalination have gone through wide swings.  What are the cost of the membranes, the actual life versus the projected life, the cost of energy and length of the contracts, the terms of financing, etc.  There are many questions that have been asked but the government has given no documents to back up the answers.</p>
<p>I suggest you look at a picture of a waterbag (see <a href="http://www.waterbag.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.waterbag.com</a>) and then look at a photo of the inside of a desalination plant.  Based on steel and cement, membranes, etc, versus fabric and a zipper, what looks like it would be the most inexpensive system to construct?  And the cost of energy to operate a desal plant versus the cost of energy to move the same volume of water through the ocean using waterbags gives a clear advantage to waterbag technology.</p>
<p>And this doesn&#8217;t even put a value on the environmental advantages of waterbag technology versus desalination plants, the cost of the expensive coastal property, etc.</p>
<p>To enter this argument you must base your opinions on documentable facts.</p>
<p>T. Spragg</p>
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		<title>By: Gabriel Eckstein (IWLP blogger)</title>
		<link>http://www.internationalwaterlaw.org/blog/2009/07/29/terry-spragg-comments-on-water-peace-and-the-middle-east/comment-page-1/#comment-151</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabriel Eckstein (IWLP blogger)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:24:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://internationalwaterlaw.org/blog/?p=171#comment-151</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for your comment Elad. The numbers definitely need to be placed into context - the cost of production versus the the cost charged to the buyer. If the Israel government is buying at 55 cents per cubic meter, I wonder what the actual cost of production is at the Ashkelon plant?  Is it higher, or possibly lower than the price actually paid? What about at Hadera (you suggested that the price paid will be even lower)?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comment Elad. The numbers definitely need to be placed into context &#8211; the cost of production versus the the cost charged to the buyer. If the Israel government is buying at 55 cents per cubic meter, I wonder what the actual cost of production is at the Ashkelon plant?  Is it higher, or possibly lower than the price actually paid? What about at Hadera (you suggested that the price paid will be even lower)?</p>
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		<title>By: Elad Salomons</title>
		<link>http://www.internationalwaterlaw.org/blog/2009/07/29/terry-spragg-comments-on-water-peace-and-the-middle-east/comment-page-1/#comment-150</link>
		<dc:creator>Elad Salomons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:03:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://internationalwaterlaw.org/blog/?p=171#comment-150</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi,
I Have written a few words on the subject on my blog at:
http://www.water-simulation.com/wsp/2009/07/24/make-water-not-war/

The number of 55 cents or so, at the Ashkelon plant is the *total* cost the Israeli government buys the water. In the plant being built in Hadera, about 100 km north to Ashkelon, the price will be even lower.

Elad]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,<br />
I Have written a few words on the subject on my blog at:<br />
<a href="http://www.water-simulation.com/wsp/2009/07/24/make-water-not-war/" rel="nofollow">http://www.water-simulation.com/wsp/2009/07/24/make-water-not-war/</a></p>
<p>The number of 55 cents or so, at the Ashkelon plant is the *total* cost the Israeli government buys the water. In the plant being built in Hadera, about 100 km north to Ashkelon, the price will be even lower.</p>
<p>Elad</p>
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